Celestial Cafe Apology

Jeremy,

Since I’ve been off work I’ve taken to reflecting on my life. Of course this was not by choice. Mom thinks it wouldn’t have happened any other way and I would agree. I was content to go along with things the way they were thinking everything was fine. You mentioned in one of your responses you could imagine the difficulties associated with my heart attack and loss of work would be significant. For whatever reason, the heart attack not so much but the job loss has/is a huge trial for me. I guess it all depended on where my hidden securities lie; unbeknownst to me.

While I’ve been provided ample time to obtain alternative employment and I know Jesus will take care of us as he has for the last 60 years, there still remains this constant battle to maintain perspective. My first reaction was a bit frantic thinking I have to find another job quickly but I’ve seen that it was motivated by fear. I now think this situation was arranged by Jesus to clean my house so to speak. He wants my security to be in him, not this world or my job. I know how Paul describes discipline and that it is a very good thing for a number of reasons, but until it all resolves my soul is pretty shaken.

So in one of my more dire moments I googled irrational fear.  As it seemed to be irrational to me. I found this link written by a ministers wife, Rebecca Barlow Jordan, listing 5 ways for handle irrational fear.

http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/spiritual-life/five-ways-to-handle-irrational-fear.html

The first one spoke to me: 1. Cry Out to Jesus. Something I hadn’t done although I had prayed. So I did and it really helped. It wasn’t that difficult since I was pretty emotionally desperate at the time. I have done it a few times since and each time there is a comforting that significantly drops my stress level. It was just expressing how I really felt which I realize my prayers had not done. Telling him how scared I was and lost and that I needed his help. Also, during these moments, there was some illumination about my fears and my misplaced security and a reconnecting to him. In thankfulness I emailed Rebecca and thanked her for her blog and told her what had happened and how much it had helped. She emailed back thanking me for my email.

I have also been blessed through a song appropriately called ‘Blessings’ by Laura Story. The situation that gave rise to her writing this song really spoke to me and her interpretation of it is amazing. I heard it on Pandora then googled it. I found a bunch of YouTube videos of her testifying about her situation and also read some of what she’d written about her situation. Basically her husband got a brain tumor which she asked to be healed. It didn’t happen and she struggled with why not. In the end, and partly from a suggestion from her sister, she looked at the struggle she was having as the blessing. And that is what really spoke to me in my struggle.

While both of these people provided comfort and blessings the struggle continues. I guess it takes time for my soul to adjust to 20 years of affirmation that is now missing. I know Jesus loves me and always has but I see I’ve been quietly relying on other sources without really knowing it. I know discipline is a very good thing and means I’m being treated as a son. I hang onto that as it works it’s way through my soul.

So the point of this post is that I recently thought that I would reread our blog, Celestial Cafe, and see how it sits with me after this change had partly worked it’s way through me. It took a few days. :o) I was actually quite impressed with the depth and detail that we got into. Really difficult and important questions, extensive research and really not holding much back. Even back then I knew and said that there was no one that would discuss these issues and I appreciated the dialogue. I could clearly see you were trying to understand my positions. On the other hand, I’m not sure I was making the same effort.

I want to apologize for some of what I said in my posts. It appears quite clear to me that there is a general tone of assuredness that lacks humility. A false assuredness if you will which sometimes showed a harshness and lack of empathy that I am very appreciative my Lord does not show towards me. While there is some truth in the voluminous writings, mainly in descriptions of direct experiences I’ve had, this underlying attitude taints much of what I say. There are a number of statements that I wish I’d never made and lots of areas that I spouted about unnecessarily not adding to the purpose of the discussion. All signs of the underlying attitude. So again, I apologize and ask for your forgiveness.

I wanted to add that in your Dec 2007 post called ‘Material vs Spiritual’ you make some quality points about the an interconnectedness between what happens on earth and ramifications in the spiritual realm. It makes a lot of sense and your examples are totally valid. I know I had given church ceremonies and the like short shrift, but I won’t anymore. I’m aware of many statements that corroborate your viewpoint where what happens on earth is kind of mirrored in heaven. Something to be held in awe and reverence.

There is definitely an anti church bias in my viewpoint. I was studying to become a minister so was kind of immersed in the church and it’s culture. Nevertheless it misses considering the people who come to those very same churches looking for solace, comfort and a word of encouragement from their brothers and sisters in Christ. Something I very much wanted to be part of when I began my walk with Jesus. I can see you ran into that frequently and rightly defended the validity of the church regardless of the position of it’s leadership.

It now appears to me that I know so very little. The universe is mind boggling and the spiritual realities that made it all come to be, incomprehensible. Definitely see in a glass dimly. I did think that before but without the false security, the ante’s been upped. God bless your family and yourself. I will pray for you and your family as who knows the impact it will have in the earthy and heavenly arena. :o)

Dad

Matter, Energy, Spirit - The Trinity in Unity

I don't believe I ever said it wasn't Paul's experience. I certainly think it was. He was brought up under the tutelage of Gamaliel a great 1st century Jewish religious teacher. Paul was totally religious and would have lived the law inside out. He himself speaks of his righteousness under the law. He was pretty much blameless and followed everything to the tee. As it says, because he was so zealous for the law he was assisting in the killing of the new sect because they were blasphemers from his perspective. I don't think when Jesus met Paul on the road to Damascus everything dropped like water off a ducks back. It just doesn't happen that way. Paul would have to 'work it out' so that the reality of his new experience and changed mind/heart penetrated into the multi-decade trained soul of this Pharasaical law abider. I think it took years for Paul to align his new realities and die to his old self. I absolutely think he was talking in Romans in relation to his first hand experience. Nevertheless, the context of his expression is that that experience is not where we are to live and that is why he is testifying to the church in Rome. Living under the law is not a characteristic of a son but rather the slave. I think Paul speaks directly to your 'process' of sin, repent, forgiveness. That's simply not the way it is. "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" Romans 6:1-2

I think there is spiritual significance, as you say, to baptism. I'm impressed that demons go through 'waterless' places on their journeys after being cast out. It's like demons cannot handle water. Which kind of fits with the holy water as part of the exorcism ritual. That's why immersion fits because at that point the demons can't get to you. What I like about baptism is that it symbolizes a new birth, like out of the womb. Which fits totally with Paul's testimony about our new life in Christ. (and my views on Romans) I agree these things have more meaning than we know and we usually take it on Jesus word. Like Paul says about marriage, the two become one, and it's a bit of a mystery but it's for real. And what about John's whole deal with the three witnesses. "This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree." 1 John 5:6-8

I just don't buy your description of your experience. Which shouldn't be a surprise. Sin works in the subconscious. People don't know what they are doing. The sin I've heard people talk about never amounts to much in my book and they definitely don't display any conviction of sin which is how they would know it was. The Holy Ghost doesn't fuck around. It's normally some light weight rules they've put on themselves. I'd need some real examples to understand how you know what God's will is but I'm not sure that type of dialogue would be fruitful. If you're a serial killer or a child molester I might get on board. The guys who do that shit don't think they're really doing anything wrong.

I think eternity can be comprehended. In fact I think everything can be comprehended. We have the mind of Christ. If we can handle it he'll show it to us. I don't think we're limited that way. Although I'll agree we see in a mirror dimly, nevertheless I'm thinking the glass is half full. Later dude.

material vs spiritual

In reference to Romans 7 I see nothing to indicate that Paul is not speaking of himself. He constantly uses the personal terms me, my and I. There is no where he suggests that he is speaking of one who is under the law. It would have been easy to indicate this but such indications are absent. I can stand with the choir more firmly then ever that the plain interpretation of Romans 7 is true. I agree that he is not thanking God for letting him live in turmoil but rather thanking God that his sins will be forgiven. The process is predictable: we sin, we repent, and we are forgiven. We give thanks that we are still forgiven on the seventy seventh time. I see how this contradicts the absoluteness of some of the epistles but this is what I experience.

Something that comes to mind is that the spiritual realm is beyond sensation experience the majority of the time. We make contact with it – depending on how well tuned you are to it – but we are hardly aware of what is really transpiring. Take for example baptism. I consider it a symbolic act of death and resurrection. For some time I wondered what does it matter if you get baptized. Once you declare for yourself that you believe in Jesus that’s all that really matters, right? As I speak more and more with people who have been baptized I hear the testimonies of severe conflicts of faith due to spiritual warfare with Satan. Much like Jesus, after his baptism, it seems that for forty days those who have been baptized are tested. The Lord pulls back the hedge and allows Satan to make war on his newly baptized. It’s obvious that Satan hates this act. So while I may only see it as a symbolic ritual, the spiritual realm sees something different. I don’t see the absoluteness of the act of baptism but I hear these testimonies and I also have faith in the words of Jesus that you must baptized by water and fire and I am convinced of the spiritual significance.

I think the same goes for the cross. To on lookers it is a crazy man being nailed to a tree. In the spiritual realm everything changes. Chains are broken, curtains tear, and doors are opened. There is an absoluteness that happens here. There will be no more sacrifices. God’s love has released us from death. We are free. Now I have to be careful as I separate the material from the spiritual for when Jesus died the skies went dark. This man took something material like water and walked on it or made you drunk on it. I subscribe to Dave’s theory – and whomever he might have taken it from - that the spiritual is the governing force of energy which is matter. There is a relationship between spirit, energy, and matter yet our five God given senses are designed to detect matter. My point is that the truth of the spiritual realm doesn’t always manifest so clearly in the physical realm.

Case in point: my sinful nature. I know I’m a new creation and going to heaven because that has been promised me. That is the spiritual side. I also know my relationship is growing. Things I could ignorantly get away with last year I can not this year. I learn more, I am held to a new standard. The new standards are not easy and I don’t always want to follow. The hunger to do my own will is too great and I turn from God and say I will do what I want because it appears more pleasing to me. As I do this I know God wants me to follow his will. I also know that ultimately he is right and yet I choose my own will; I sin. This is the material. It is all to God's glory that I then humbly repent, I experience his grace, and I praise him. It has been determined, prophesized, that I am a new creation. It is what I am and at the same time what God is shaping me into being.

You remember how it says, to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. You remember how by biblical chronology we’ve been here for about 6000yrs and there will be 1000yrs of rest and how that is a lot like the 7 day creation story. What if the creation of man is the lifespan of man? What if creation is a seven thousand year journey? I tend to feel that a lot of confusion falls in trying to fit our time based existence into an eternal existence. Eternity can not be comprehended intellectually. This why there is always fierce debate over the contradictory doctrines of free will and predestination.

It’s interesting that you bring up quantum mechanics here. I tend to lean with Einstein. There must be a better theory that explains light phenomenon; we just haven’t got all the facts. I also know that Einstein’s reaction is very similar to the writer of ecclesiastes, Meaningless! Meaningless! Everything is meaningless! It’s funny that Einstein would make such a statement about God rolling the dice because everything in Ecclesiastes states that God does role the dice. “As it is with the good man, so with the sinner . . . the same destiny overtakes all.” But the light and wave theory phenomenon is similar to my difficulties in what the word says I am and what I experience. It seems that both happen at the same time. But again I would like to reinforce my agreement with Einstein and possibly Nygren - that there are no contradictions. And this is why I struggle with 1 John as I do.

In reading over your last post I came across this, “but that doesn't mean it's us, it means we have to drag this shit around until physical death releases us from it.”

I’m not sure this is consistent with your previous arguments. I thought I brought up a statement like this and you said something to the point that the body is renewed as well? I’ll have to look back to confirm this. Still have read the first chapter about Body, Spirit, and Soul by Nee.

Life in the Holy Lane

I think this validates the freedom perspective because it meshes. If you are at all under the law then this stuff from John cannot make any sense. I have never heard anyone discuss this or attempt to deal with it. I had heard the Nygren wrote commentary's on a lot of the New Testament but we only had Romans. I looked for more but never found any. Perhaps they were never translated from his native tongue. I was primarily looking for John's letters because I thought Nygren could deal with it.

I've never claimed to be without sin. I have sinned and lived in it until I met Jesus.
Have I sinned since then . . . mmm . . . good question.
Most Christians would have an instant answer for this, of course, yes...of course.
The rub is what's the Christian's life in relation to the nature of sin.
Surely it cannot be our new nature. Our new nature cannot have anything to do with sin.
Nothing of our sinful nature will be passing through the gates into heaven.
Paul says we are dead to wrath, sin, law and death.

Neither do I think there's a dichotomy or split personality going on. I think that's where those under the law reinterpret the New Testament to fit that view...their life. Nygren's Commentary takes that view apart quite nicely and their interpretation is shown to be inconsistent with all of Paul's testimony and therefore false.

It's especially telling at the end of Romans 7 because I think it to be a description of the life of a Christian who is living under the law. Since all commentators I have read are in that zone, then it's impossible for them to properly illuminate Paul's words, because Paul is criticizing that life which they are all living in. They soooooooo identify with Paul's description but he's absolutely not saying that's how we are to live.

They totally identify with "For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Ahhh, that's home baby. But Paul is not stating a zone where he lives, he thanks God profusely in verse 25. And he's not thankin him for letting him live in turmoil.

He declares totally victory with the start of Chapter 8 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". Yep, noooooo condemnation. Doh, where did that come from? They much prefer "we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions . . . " They gravitate to the Christian under the law because that's what they know. But that is not what Paul is saying. He discusses it because the law is for real but he never ends there, it's always part of a conversation where in the end we are really free from sin and free from the law. Which makes total sense with being born again and having the mind of Christ.

The RSV is my preferred version because I think it's a little less watered down from comparisons I've made. That translation goes "No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him . . . . No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God" and on the other side of the coin (or the same side) "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

For starters they aren't written side by side. For seconders everything is about context. My view of John's statements or better said, mindset, is that as born again Christians we are truly God's children who live in the Spirit of the Holy Ghost and do not sin. That's what makes us unique and identifiable from the unsaved who live in Satan's lies. Loving your enemies cannot exist in a non-Christian and can only be driven by the Spirit of God in his people who have aligned themselves with his mindset. When he states that no one who sins has either seen him or known him I think he's talking about those who live in sin not those who are dead to sin. In the translation you use it says "continue in sin" which may be added or be a better interpretation of the original Greek, but I do consider it to be non-Christians who simply live in sin. And when John says Christian's don't sin it's the same tone and meaning as Paul who says we are dead to sin . . . "How can we still live in it". We don't sin. We're dead to it. Thanks be to Jesus for becoming it on the cross. John isn't wrapped up in the theological technicalities, he's painting a reality picture.

Paul says "now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me." This is the same sentiment. Sin is the enemy and we are seen as apart from it. Christ work has separated us from it although it's still looming because we still have decaying bodies housing our souls. But that doesn't mean it's us, it means we have to drag this shit around until physical death releases us from it but at no time does it dictate who we really are. It's passed away and all has become new.

I'm not sure whether this addresses your issues. John also states in Chapter 2 "My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" So he doesn't preclude the potential that Christians sin. So that is the context, Christian's sin, but they are not sin. They've died with Christ and live in the Spirit. It's simply the way it is. God is reality and I think Paul and John simply testify what they see and know; that is the Spirit of a prophet.

Even at the essence of physics you see exactly the same thing. Scientists have to describe light as both wave and particle, which even though is contradictory, is the only way to render the truth accurately. And as I've mentioned before, the behaviour of particles at the quantum level had Einstein balking with the statement 'God doesn't play dice with the universe'. He couldn't handle the seemingly unconnected but better described 'personal' behaviour of particles. I loved it because it matched how I'd come to know the strange essence of our creator. He is that he is which is hands down my favourite outcry.

What the ...?

"And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him . . . 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

These words come from chapter 3 but if you look back to chapter 1 John states this.

"the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."

My problem here is that these two statements appear contradictory and yet they are stated in same short letter. I remember you stating that there are no contradictions and this only means that we have to dig deeper (you quoted someone else with this statement, maybe Nygren?). I was curious if you had an explanation for what appears to be a blatant contradiction in John's letter.

Sons

I don't think deductive reasoning will be useful in this case. I would say things just are a certain way. Paul says we have the mind of Christ. The guy in Romans logically deduces "Why does God find fault because he opens and closes the hearts of whomever he wills". Paul's response is not that that's not true, because he was arguing exactly that case, but rather that question is not a valid question. It makes sense logically and reasonably but it's not a legitamate question to ask. "Will the pot say to the potter, why have you made me thus". There's definitely a flavour of that in this because it's purely spiritual. (unlike Shroud of Turin, Evolution, Biblical Chronology which have hard data which can be more easily debated)

Paul encourages all Christians to agree. He tells us to have the same mind as him about things. I don't think it's a question of elite or not elite simply that he knew what the truth was. I don't have a reference but I could find where he says if they don't agree with him then have nothing to do with them. Obviously there was lots of division since day one but Paul never agreed with that kind of difference of opinion. If we all saw the universe as Jesus sees it, then there would be perfect agreement. We wouldn't be the same but we would have the same perspective as to what is going on. That's what Christians should strive for.

From the time you're born you are being thrown information. I have a hard time believing you can distinguish the sources of your "inner" knowledge as opposed to what developed in you from input from other sources. At a very early age you become what you see around you without any conscious choice or discernment. I don't think you can splice that up later in life and say you know such and such because you are a human and it's innate to our race as opposed to someone told me this and it went into my subconcious without any filters. Of course I believe the Holy Spirit is an exception because that knowledge runs counter to all natural knowledge. It is foolish from the natural perspective.

I think the issue is critical because it affects every second of every day and all relationships. Dave was the first person who spoke on spirtual issues with authority and this perspective was underlying that expression. I believe the main reason people marvelled at Christ at their initial encounter was exactly this, he spoke with authority (not like the scribes and Pharasee) It's also the difference between the guy who trys to cast a demon out and the demon says, I know Paul and I know Jesus but who are you. That being said I don't think it's profitable to continue rehashing an issue that is not making any headway. Not that I would know when or why or how that would take place which is why I am reluctant to draw any lines in the sand.

Since my spiritual life began, developed and to this day hinges on this doctrine it makes sense that I would have a lot to say on it. I think it's the fundamental issue that the church has stumbled over and the early church fought over. It runs parallel to Nygren's "Agape and Eros" in that the church has opted for the Platonic Eros as opposed to the Godly Agape. And it's in the love of God that this make perfect spiritual sense. We are sons and cry daddy, daddy with confidence. For freedom Christ has set us free.

Trying to get this

Maybe I missed something somewhere but I still don’t feel like I’ve gotten a clear answer. You have admitted that we all grow and you have admitted that you are not beyond sin but you also have the mind of Christ exactly as Christ did. Christ was without sin and did not grow, he was God, the Alpha and the Omega. Therefore we can not have the mind of Christ and still sin and grow. In my mind it is impossible to be both at the same time. This is deductive reasoning.

Your point about where the Holy Spirit takes effect brings out my doubts on the effect of the Holy Spirit. I don’t always know what beliefs are inline with the Lord. There are far too many denominations and differences of opinion on interpretation of scripture for me to believe that the Holy Spirit brings them all inline. I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit takes our free will from us therefore we have the choice to follow or not to follow hence we have difference of opinion. I don’t believe there is an elite few who all have the same beliefs inline.

You asked if there’s a difference between learned preconceptions and the sense of right and wrong written in the fabric of creation. I don’t understand how you can’t see the difference between learned and innately known? Nature vs. Nurture?

The Preacher

It’s interesting to me that you focus on the 8 word phrase where I speculate on something I don’t know as opposed to the other 2,072 words where I testify what I do know. I put that in as a rider, similar to Paul dropping: “I have not attained it yet”, simply to qualify I don’t know what I don’t know.

This is a very small needle in a gigantic haystack and it isn’t even a needle. That I will continue to grow is a no brainer but that doesn’t cause me to arm chair quarterback and think I’m not where I should be because I can see now what I didn’t see before. Satan does that enough without my support and it is, as everything he says, a lie.

That you mention it first is no real surprise and that you use it to reiterate your position is pretty consistent. I would suggest that using it to think we’re on the same page is a stretch. Everything I said, including that phrase (taken in the context it was given) is a testimony that we have the mind of Christ. Not a pretend pie in the sky mind of Christ, but exactly the same mind, perspective and attitude. I’ve had this conversation before with a number of other Christians and the framework of the argument is identical. There is a very real difference and it doesn’t have anything to do with communication.

My only continual amazement is the blatant New Testament statements of our call to be like Christ (we are the righteousness of God) and the casual way most Christians disregard these in favour of what appears as a more “humble”, “realistic” position. I need to make a list of all of these statements that hit me like a 4x4 although I don’t believe it will make a difference anyway.

Also, once you repent, then you’ve repented. Jesus washes away your sins. Then, guess what, they’re washed away. I acknowledge that your position is the standard take on things. My take on it is that I can’t really distinguish it from my mother’s viewpoint. She thinks she’s a good person and wants to do good to others. Her criticisms are usually pointed at the selfishness of others. She did lots of voluntary work at the hospital and occasionally still attends church. When she meets Jesus she’s going to tell him she did her best. I think that’s pretty much the result of the standard Christian perspective and if that’s what I was looking for then I don’t need the Holy Spirit, because my mom sure doesn’t. Dave’s testimony set off the pilot light in me which eventually turned into a bonfire. If I can’t be like Jesus, as he said I can, then I’m not interested.

Read a bit of info on the Barna Group web page. http://www.barna.org I actually agree with the thrust of his summary of the Revolution.

“There is a new breed of Christ-follower in America today. These are people who are more interested in being the Church than in going to church. They are more eager to produce fruit for the kingdom of God than to become comfortable in the Christian subculture. They are focused on the seven spiritual passions that facilitate their growth as genuine people of God and citizens of the kingdom. These people are Revolutionaries.“

I don’t really consider myself a Revolutionary nor am I focused on the seven spiritual passions but the rest of his dialogue is pretty accurate. I would suggest that true Christianity would automatically be considered revolutionary by the world as it was in the beginning. If the church is calling it that then they’ve become the world and by and large I believe that to be the case. It doesn’t resemble the early church in any way. That church gave all their possessions and it was redistributed as needed. That requires a Holy Spirit mentality that I haven’t seen approached anywhere. It’s communism that works because of Jesus. What Ayn Rand despised and degraded more than anything else and John Galt (fictional) spent every ounce of his being to halt. Of course in the world it is absurd, but in the kingdom it is the way it will be. When I find a spiritual church, like minded, I’ll be there, unless I start my own first.

I thought I’d leave your second paragraph alone (re: right/wrong) but it goes to the heart of the freedom from the law issue and became too difficult to resist. From an overview perspective, for those who are not free from the law (the norm), the question of judgment will produce some clear evidence of their thinking. Why? Because the law provides the required judgment and the Spirit really doesn’t have a function. (see previous posts) That being the case, the spirit still needs to be included because, well, we are Christians and the Holy Spirit has to be in there somewhere.

So, are “learned preconceptions” not the “sense of right and wrong written in the fabric of our creation”? If not then what’s the difference? What is handed down through people from generation to generation is the very sense you speak of. (noting that the Bible has been handed down flawlessly through countless generations – don’t use the communication flaw argument) It’s what my mother so staunchly believes in. She knows what good and bad, right and wrong are.

You mention that all the learned preconceptions are not in line with our Lord. You must therefore know which ones are and which ones aren’t. How do you know? Why doesn’t everyone know?
Great sentence: “Without the Holy Spirit our ability to discern the heart and motivation of an individual is flawed.” This is an absolutely perfect example of what I mentioned in the overview. The Holy Spirit is brought to bear, because he has to be, but really what does he bring to the table in your discussion. Zip. Nadda. You’re not even saying the Holy Spirit would render a flawless judgment, just that it will be flawed without him. So what does he really contribute? Won’t the judgment be flawed either way? In the end I believe this argument is simply that you know what’s right and wrong and always have. Clearly I don’t hold to that view. (As previously mentioned the Jesus killers didn’t know what they were doing, but according to you I guess they did or better put in your lingo, “should have”)

By the way, self consciousness is a form of knowledge. My interpretation is based on their initial reaction to eating of the tree. It wasn’t we’re sinners, we’re bad for eating the apple, Satan’s evil, it was “we’re naked!” That’s the real evil but I don’t believe it can register according to your definitions and the majority of those who agree with you.

At least we agree Jesus Christ is Lord. Nuff said.

I’m thinking of starting my own blog just to “preach to the stones”. A way of venting on any topic and many of the crazy things that are of interest to me. I was inspired by some of the blogs I’ve seen that do a similar thing. Since Christ is all and in all, I have an endless supply of material. I’ll let you know when it gets going. Hope to include lots of multimedia to embellish my point. One topic of interest is the major events that cause the death of humans. Like how does the Vietnam war stack up to WW2 or Stalin’s purges. Just to get a frame of reference on a massive scale. I once calculated that there could have been a trillion people on earth at the time of the flood. Stuff like that.

Needed a rest

I read this first before I came home for Brit’s wedding. It was near bedtime and I was tired. Reading this made me more tired. You stating that we are rehashing the same old thing especially resounded with me. Sometimes I feel we just have trouble communicating. You say you are 100% sure you have the mind of Christ because Paul has said we do. In accordance with the Word than we agree. But then you also suggest that from Jesus’ perspective it might not be that way. I believe this is all I meant by not having the mind of Christ. Christ, who walked the earth had a mind that never sinned. This is not us. If it were, his ministry would not have been, “repent for the kingdom of heaven in near”. It is yet another Christian paradox. We are holy and complete and yet we are a work in progress; we are at war and yet the war has already been won.

I certainly agree that there are learned preconceptions of right and wrong that are not in line with our Lord. With out the Holy Spirit our ability to discern the heart and motivation of an individual is flawed. I’m still convinced there is a sense of right in wrong written in the fabric of our creation. If the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were merely self consciousness it would have been called the tree of self consciousness.

I’ve been reading a book called, Revolution by George Barna. It’s tag line is, worn out on church, finding vibrant faith beyond the walls of the sanctuary. It certainly tracks the trend of people moving away from the church but Barna finds that there are still many who maintain a vibrant Christ led life. (You’ll probably hate it from the jacket description). I’m wondering what you make of the fellowship of the early church ex. Acts 2:46,47. These men gathered daily. Jesus had his disciples and preached in synagogues where men gathered. I’m asking if you feel you need that community of fellowship as they were compelled to do? If not, why not? Do you already have that in your life? If not what are you doing to find it? I’m not talking church but like minded believers.

The Conviction of Things Hoped For

When I first grasped freedom from the law or what I interpret it to be, I was left no longer knowing right from wrong. Should I murder? God opened the earth and swallowed up 250,000 in one shot. He marched them around the desert until they were all dead. Should I commit adultery? Well David had Bathsheba's husband killed by devious means then took her. He was the epoch King David whom God loved. They begat Solomon who built God's temple; the wisest man who ever lived. Should I steal? Jacob stole Esau's blessing and inherited the lineage to Christ. While this did not inspire me to follow their actions, I did dump my preconceptions of what was right and wrong. I did so because the revelation of freedom from the law had locked down in me and my previous alignment was no longer valid. So I believe our life is to be one of abiding in the Spirit not an orientation to right/wrong. We may think we know the difference between right and wrong but we really can't. I don't think Cain knew shit other than he was pissed. He bashed Abel's head in but there were no rules, no laws, no police. He even displays the attitude. I mean he's talking to God and says stop bugging me, who appointed me the caretaker of Abel. No indication he's bothered one iota.

I think that's what Paul's talking about in Roman 7:21 "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand". The life of a Christian is not about thinking what's right or wrong. Our orientation should be other than that. There's a whole lot in the New Testament about abiding in him. I think that's more the vein of our relationship than any laws or rules.

I think of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil as a tree of self consciousness. The first thing that happened was they realized they were naked. Is that a good or evil thing? Before they ate, they didn't know naked from not naked. Prior to that they depended on God for everything because they were innocent. And I think that's the way it's supposed to be. We need to have a childlike relationship with God because really, we don't know anything. The real nature of sin is to say “Hey I’m naked, I better cover up”… cuts God right out of the picture. And what we do know is just shit. Knowledge will pass away!! I kind of Spiritually wandered around at first, walking into a few walls but began to read the Bible in earnest and found the attitudes and actions of the people in the New Testament a guiding light to who I am. I read Matthew one night from start to finish and could feel the dust on my face from the roads in Jerusalem. I believe the Spirit tuned my soul into the realities being described and made them mine. I came away, not remembering a single verse, couldn't quote you a single passage, but I had been there and remembered the tones and attitudes of Jesus and his followers. I also read Luke and the sequel Act's over two nights; same impact. When they began to sing in the prisons after being beaten I had chills run up and down me for minutes (as they are now) Who are these men? What makes them this way? The resurrected Jesus. So that (he)became my guide. Not the individual verses, which are important in defending the faith (apologetics) but the overwhelming tone and character that falls off the pages.

I don't think this would have happened if I had not been engaged by freedom. I would have had answers to my direction question. In fact, it never would have come up. I would have had a guide. Because I was at a huge loss, disposing of my prior determinator of correct behaviour, I was left with a vacuum that needed filling. And fill it he did. One of my favourite verses is Romans 12:2 "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." So through the renewal of my mind and me being obedient to that reality, I will find what the will of God is. When I found I wanted to tell someone about Jesus that became my new reality. If this is my new mind I better live in accord with it. So I told them. It was hard but it was also synchronized with what I truly wanted to do. Same on the subways or with people who gave me rides. Satan would try to attack constantly saying this or that to make it difficult to sort out what I wanted to do but I plodded on praising Jesus and praying to live in accord with my new mind. So it was a struggle but I began to find myself. Without freedom, I wouldn't have looked at things this way. Interpreting what I wanted to do was actually from the Spirit. And this ended up becoming my life. That's why the stories of the New Testament come to my mind so readily because my life is shaped by the attitudes they display. This whole way of thinking is not compatible with rules or right/wrong. What's right is Jesus and what's wrong is Satan. The religious leaders of the day thought Jesus was Satan for exactly what he said and did so the law is not a revealer of God.

If our contexts were the same then I don't think we'd still be hashing this out. Everyone does things that they know are wrong but that's not in the context that Paul writes of in Hebrews. In one sense this validates my points. If Paul is referring to your behaviour, and everyone else's for that matter, then you're all fucked. But is he really referring to you? Doesn't Jesus forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness? But Paul is saying "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins". The New Testament story is God reaching out to us so that we might believe in him and have everlasting life. The key here is the context, and it is unique. It is critical what Paul means by "sin deliberately" and "knowledge of the truth". They are the ying and yang of this passage. The deliberateness is a byproduct of the knowledge. The degree of the knowledge determines the required deliberateness to go against it.

"Forgive them for they know not what they do" Did they really not know what they were doing? They knew Jesus worked miracles, knew people held him to be a prophet, never hurt anyone, claimed to be God, yet here they were nailing him to his certain death. So Jesus doesn't assess them as knowing what they were doing yet on some level they certainly did. I think Paul is talking about a Spiritual knowing and Jesus is talking about a carnal knowing what you're doing. To the spiritual, a carnal knowing what you're doing is an antithesis. Without the Spirit, you just flat out don't know what you're doing. You may have a long list of right & wrongs and some type of religious connection to them but that's is not what Paul is addressing. That kind of, what I will call minor law breaking, is what Jesus died to forgive. When you receive the Spirit, only then do you have an opportunity to know what's going on. Although you don't think I can know this, most Christians are clueless and I think Jesus' forgiveness applies equally to them (as to those who crucified him) because they still don't know. There are a number of people who do know, and know that they know. And Paul appropriately describes the transgression as "throwing away your confidence" (v35) It is rejecting something/someone you are confident about.

And if you haven't recognized it, I am confident. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for. It's not a namby pamby "I believe". It's a "this is f'n real, period". I have zero doubt about the reality of Jesus and his resurrection. I am still open to facts and evidence but still have zero doubt. The facts and information are part of the faith road (Jesus came to earth to provide evidence) but the Spirit can/will confirm truths in you which changes it to "the truth" rather than an accurate historical record. So Paul is referring to guys like me, who have confidence that can be thrown away. Thus the dark side looms, in the sense that I could throw my confidence away. I don't know what would cause this, perhaps some combination of sex, money, power, torture, imprisonment but I can't imagine it at this point. What would be the point of me denying anything I know? But every situation that involves another human being brings the potential of Satan's power into my life. Every thought is to be taken captive to obey my mind of Christ.

As to an objective validation whether I have the mind of Christ I can offer a few things. Your statement that “I justify all my thoughts and actions with faith that I have the mind of Christ” is not how it is in me. I do not have faith that I have the mind of Christ. I have a mind. Not my Spirit, not my body, but my mind, which is part of my soul. I know what I think. I can compare it to what Jesus, Paul and the disciples thought. On that front my mind pretty much mirrors the New Testament mentality. And Wycliffe, along with the other TST Colleges, pretty much attempted to obliterate my interpretations from my mind. I accept the Creation (6000 yrs ago), evolution is a doctrine of demons, the resurrection is a real event etc. All that I write is supported by the Bible. The supporting passages follow my initial writings, meaning the thoughts are first and references later. My thoughts make sense of all the New Testament and passages that I once hated (who are you a man to answer back to God) I delight in. At work people like my form of management because it's just, not fair. I don't always tell "the truth" but neither id Jesus in that narrow sense. It depends on who’s asking and why they're asking. He did what he wanted and was God. (told them he wasn't going to the wedding but went anyway) So I compare and check to see if I'm him.I read your concern but you must see I do not share it. As you can read I don't worry about whether my thoughts and actions are pure as Christ. I'm not sure how you'd even do that. And here's where there's a very big difference. At this point I would choke on saying "I can't believe that I have the mind of Christ". That is in my wheelhouse. Not only would I choke but I would definitely be tossing out some confidence, so to speak. I can't - not - say I have the mind of Christ. I must say it. Not because I believe it's true, or hope it's true, or like the sound of it, but because it is true. God has sent the Holy Spirit into me, at my request, to manifest Jesus in me. Some of that work is done and to whatever degree that is, I have the mind of Christ. From my view it's 100%, to Christ it might be a different number, but Jesus will have to show me and I’ll have to be open to see it. I could site numerous passages but I think you'd agree it's a totally warranted position. (1 Corinthians 2:16 to say the least)

You don't mention the Spirit, Soul, Body issue; very significant in my mind. It's the resolution of this type of issue that changes your thinking. If you have a mind and you're so sure it's not the mind of Christ, then what is it? Of course you don't have the question if you think we're just Spirit/Body. And if we are Spirit/Soul/Body then you should wonder where that other doctrine came from.